From senator-bedfellow.mit.edu!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Thu Mar 21 11:22:24 2002 Path: senator-bedfellow.mit.edu!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail From: plugh@subdimension.com (Plugh!) Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction Subject: Re: [Inform] Map creation utility Date: 11 Dec 2001 00:15:10 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 188 Message-ID: <98ef019f.0112110015.55399766@posting.google.com> References: <1007765094.759308@sidehack.sat.gweep.net> <98ef019f.0112100509.6615125@posting.google.com> <1008004854.154232@sidehack.sat.gweep.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.35.17.15 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1008058510 17585 127.0.0.1 (11 Dec 2001 08:15:10 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Dec 2001 08:15:10 GMT Xref: senator-bedfellow.mit.edu rec.arts.int-fiction:87850 "Brian Payne" wrote in message news:<1008004854.154232@sidehack.sat.gweep.net>... > "Plugh!" wrote in message > news:98ef019f.0112100509.6615125@posting.google.com... > > > As a professional sowftware developer, I can assure you that the #1 > > most important aspect of any software development project is > > specifying it. [snip] > As a professional software developer myself, I completely and utterly > agree with you. :) I have been down the unspecified road far too many times > to want to set foot on it again, especially for something that will likely > draw more fire than praise. :) Aaah! a kinred spirit; a soul brother; a fellow idiot. Sorry for statin' the bleedin' obvious, but whilst I am impeccably professional by day, I tend to jump right in & hack code by night (and most non-pros don't even know about the concept of design). It's not helped any by RAD tools like VB, Delphi, etc where you can knock up a quick GUI, just to mull over some ideas and then find that that becomes your 'design'. > > So, do yourself a big favo(u)r and ask your potential users what sort > > of a tool they would like to see. [snip] > Well, now that you've mentioned it, what would YOU like to see? I'd like to see my bloody tool finished, that's what (see http://plugh.cjb.net )! And then maybe I'd have a life again. I have had several raif threads regarding design, the first & longest of which is at http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&threadm=8642gh%24qaq%241%40nnrp1.deja.com&rnum=59&prev=/groups%3Fq%3Dplugh%26start%3D50%26hl%3Den%26rnum%3D59%26selm%3D8642gh%2524qaq%25241%2540nnrp1.deja.com see also http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&threadm=867n51%24hec%241%40nnrp1.deja.com&rnum=95&prev=/groups%3Fq%3Dplugh%26start%3D90%26hl%3Den%26rnum%3D95%26selm%3D867n51%2524hec%25241%2540nnrp1.deja.com and just generally search raif for "plugh". Most of what was said to me will be equally valid for you, I am sure. My advice is to gather as much input/feedback as possible before writing a lick o' code. Boil it down, itemize it, propritize it & offer that back to the community for feedback, then dive in. > I think > what I'll do is post the general design that I've come up with so far, and > let folks tear into it. By far the best way to do it. > And, now that I think about it, I should probably ask for name > suggestions, since I'm drawing a blank on that end. Yeah, tough one, ins't it. I want something as nihilisticly simplistic as TWAIN (tool without an interesting name), but I'm stuck with Plugh, since no-one else offered any suggestions. Why not call it Brian? or Harold? Btw, when you have fixed on a name, post with titles beggining with it in [] e.g "[NANCY] some obscure twiddly point of interest only to the developer", then others can filter it out or likewise ignore it. This was pointed out to me when I first posted. > > Are you going to have a fixed grid? [snip] > Fixed grid BAD. Ugh, no. Great decision. Now, I haven't yet seen you say that the user will be allowed to think "hmm, you know, I think the torture room would look better over by the milk bar" and drag the room to a new location (you did think of that, didn't you?). And, when he does, your connecting lines will have to redraw themselves (if you use any Borland product to develop, I have a nice freeware VCL line which will do that). Did it occur that some folks like to draw multiple maps (think 'pieces of paper')? Bet it didn't ;-) how're you gonna do that then?? Don't ask me, I know I can code it, but no-one yet specified how it should look in my GUI. I'd advise you, though, to make your project MDI from the start. > As for North always being up... well, yes. In the case of Colossal > Cave, though, you'd see something like this (pardon my horrible ASCII art): > > +--------------------+ > | | > | | > A B > > > or (more complex): > > +-----+ +-----+ > | \ / | > A x B <-- lines do not join at the x > | / \ | > +-----+ +-----+ > > > You see? In either case, North from A takes you to B, and North from B > takes you to A. The only difference is the, ah, entry vector. :) Which, > unless there's a door involved, doesn't matter, really. Hmm, I'll reserve judgemement until I see a screen shot on your web page (you do have a web page for the project, don't you? I mean, you do want us to to take you seriously? ;-) Also, when someone, inevitably, snarks that you are wasting bandwidth on raif, you might have to go to a private mailing list (although this will cut off much potential feedback). I would suggest that you trawl for suggestions, then [ANNOUNCE] a preliminary version & get more feedback from that, etc, etc > > Someone else in this thread rightly mentioned directions like in/out. > > What about ssw, etc? or magic words which move you from one room to > > the next? > > For the first beta, at any rate, stuff like that would be undefined by > the GUI mapper. Simply put, this is intended as a tool to help you get to > the enhancement stage faster -- ie, to let you breeze through the > generalized map layout and room creation, and THEN go back (by hand) and add > in the niftiness. Believe me, you *are* going to have to handle them, or your tool will be of no use to hard core i-f developers & they will tell you so in no uncertain terms (I still have the ego-bruises ;-). Again, I wish that I had practised in the evening what I preach throughout the day and considered the features of v3.0 when designing v0.01. > > If you decide to do more than just the map, there was a promising > > project called Visual Inform, which I think may no longer be in > > development - see http://www.iflibrary.org/VInform/ - perhaps you > > could take over the reins of that? > > I looked at it, but it's a bit beyond the scope of something that I'd > have time for as a hobby project. Depends how long you want to spend. I wanted something that was going to keep me away from TV & various Sid Meiers games for more than just a month or two. > Besides which, I always find it harder to > take over someone else's project (even assuming that they'd let me) than to > build my own. Damn right there! > If it turns out that I do have time later on, though, and Visual Inform > is still under development, I may offer my services as a UI designer. > That's what I specialise in during my day job, and what I enjoy the most. Aha! so that's why you want to do a mapper only (more on which later). > > Now, as to programming langauge ... you want something with gui GUI > > capabilities and preferably something cross platform [snip] > I'd be better able to debate this is if I knew more about Java; however, > from my experience (admittedly, not much), Java wouldn't be too slow, but > it'd incur a much longer development cycle. And add a new skill to your CV? what do you code professionally? > I like Borland (always have, since Turbo C 2.0 ;), I use Microsoft at > work, and since I'm just a poor broke lil programmer, I use DJGPP at home. > :) I often use MSVC (what on earth does the V stand for?) at work, but I buy Borland products for my own use. > I've never used Delphi, but it sounds like I may have to check it out. Highly recommended. Since you know VB, you'll be impressed with it. Ditto the C++ Version. As I stated earlier, the Linux version is free & there's a 60 day demo version of Delphi avalable for download (which you wouldn't be so unscrupulous as to crack, would you?). You can generally pick up a copy cheaply on eBay, or buy a student discount version, or some magazines give away the previous full version free on the cover CD in the hope that you'll upgrade. > > But, first, ask your self if you really have the time & energy to > > devote to such a thankless project. > [snip] > Heh. This is *fun*... and fun is something that I can never get enough > of. belive me, Brian, it's fun when you're at the "kicking about ideas" stage. Not so much as the interest begins to wane & the mailing list dries up & you're on your own in your lonely garret wishing you'd designed the fundementals better so that you can add just one more feature which is minimal to the user, but maximal in terms of coding required. More in your next post ...