Message-Id: <9306182233.AA18195@thor.INS.CWRU.Edu>
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 93 18:33:12 -0400
From: smg6@po.CWRU.Edu (S. Max Golem)
To: smg6@thor.INS.CWRU.Edu
Subject: MikeW.1 game revisited.
Reply-To: smg6@po.CWRU.Edu (S. Max Golem)


Hi everybody --

Blake Noah took a careful look at the mikew.1 game I commented on
and sent out, and made his own comments and asked a few more
questions.  Please feel free to do the same.

This is the first time I've used the "variation" feature of mgt,
and I think it went OK, but let me know if I screwed up....

(
;
GaMe[1]
VieW[]
SiZe[19]
PlayerBlack[mikew]
BlackRank[5k*]
PlayerWhite[anonymous]
WhiteRank[3k ]
GameName[\(IGS\) anonymous\(W\) vs mikew]
EVent[A game played on the Internet Go Server]
DaTe[1993-05-28]
PlaCe[IGS:  128.32.201.46 6969]
REsult[B+Resign]
GameComment[\( Copyright 1993 Tim L. Casey
Permission to reproduce this game is given, provided proper credit is
given.No warrantee, implied or explicit, is understood.
Use of this game is an understanding of the Copyright.]
USer[Brought to you by the IGS program]
KoMi[9.5]
Comment[OBN: Let me state up front that I'm a weak player ~3-4 Kyu. But I
love to examine and comment on games, so here's my $.02 worth. I figure the
correction of my more foolish comments may help me \(and maybe others\)
learn. I'm taking occasional lessons from a pro so some of my comments may
make sense \(at random and by accident :-\). I make this comment now
because I sometimes sound like I
know what I'm talking about, and I don't want to mislead anyone
intentionally.Obviously, take 2 grains of salt and don't flame me in the
morning :-\). Also,
MW & MG please be assured that any arrogant statements by me are not meant
to be either disrespectful or suggest that I would play as well as the
provided text \(disclaimer off\).]
White[pd]
;
Black[pd]
;
White[dp]
;
Black[pq]
;
White[dd]
;
Black[fq]
;
Comment[MW: Wasn't sure what to do here.  Considered F5, but didn't want to
float eyeless in center.
 
MG: The pincer at h3 is usually only effective when White has a stone or
thickness around d10.  You should be happy to jump into the 3-3 point. 
After b c3, if w d3, then black gets more territory than white and white's
thickness isn't very impressive \(a two-space high pincer by w is roughly
equal in division of territory.  If after b c3, w c4, then b d3 to connect
and white has little to show in exchange for giving up a large corner;
after the corner exchange, b will have to play something like c10 to
nullify w thickness, but b is so far ahead. . . .]
White[hq]
;
Black[cq]
Comment[MG: The only honest move.]
;
White[cp]
;
Black[dq]
;
White[ep]
;
Black[fr]
;
White[go]
;
Comment[MW: Purpose of this move was to devalue W's thickness.
 
MG:  Also the only move, but b should be overjoyed to play in the middle of
what is almost a w moyo.]
Black[cj]
;
Comment[MW: Was completely baffled here. Since there were no prospects
forattack or territory on the bottom, I decided to use the pincer and go
for a moyo on the upper right.
 
MG: A good idea, but it's not good to tenuki here unless you know the
takamoku josekis \(and given W's thickness, I wouldn't want to see W o4. 
Also, b later has the sequence b g4, w h4, b h5; if b has a strong position
in the lower right, this could be very troublesome for w. \(You should
expect w to live after this cut, and use the aji to annoy the w stones in
the lower left \(classical splitting attack\); again, this is for the last
part of the fuseki, not now.\)
 
OBN: I wonder about B r5 here. It seems like W has given B profit in the
lower left and gotten erased thickness. R5 takes more profit, normally in
sente. Maybe this will give B the chance to take k17-16 or approach the D16
stone. 
MG: B r5 looks playable.  I've laid out some possible developments:  the
avalanche joseki \(variation B\), the tsukehiki joseki \(C\), and the
"keima tsukehiki" joseki \(D\).
 
OBN: On the down side it gives W more potential outside influence, but it
seems like the B left and N3 \[o3?\] will work against easy development
there for W.]
White[po]
(
;
Black[pl]
;
White[qq]
Comment[MG: r3 is not joseki. w should play something like o5 or n4 \(which
may give b a strong position for the thrust at g4 later.
 
OBN: r3 even seems funny to me. It seems like o5 or such is fairly easy for
W because of the W stones on the left. If B answers at the bottom, W can
pincer \(hasami\) against the q8 stone and get help from the left. This is
why I feel a little funny about the pincer. 
 
MG: Good point.  We saw some alternatives to B q8 at the last node.
 
OBN: Can B get away with just leaving the bottom and answering W o5 at q11?
 
MG:  I can't see B tenuki'ing from the lower right corner for any reason. 
\(1\) W's aim in playing n4 is to settle himself; this means he's giving up
something, and there's no reason why B should refuse his gift.  \(2\) W
would probably follow up here with something like o3 or r3 \(anyone know
for sure?\), and the aji that B had at g4 would be lost, and the lower side
would start to look like W territory. Compare this with variation B, where
the lower side is coming under B's sway; the difference in W territory here
might be as much as thirty points; in B's, twenty maybe \(just picking
numbers out of the air, since the position is so open, but it does show how
big this choice may be \[notice that we're still talking about _aji_ at
this point of the game -- taking sente to play at the top is still
bigger\]\). \(3\) Also, Bq8 is on the fourth line, so it is rather light
\(of course, later B may have to make the choice of trying to run away with
it or forcing W to capture it on a small scale\).
 
OBN: If so \[answering W o4 at B q11\], then the pincer seems very nice ...
although I might prefer a low pincer for this. I don't see any need to
press down on B at the bottom...
 
MG: To build thickness?
 
OBN: ... just the jump seems to reserve more pressure on the right.
 
MG: True, it does.  But the real question, I think, is W's expanding his
moyo and B's trying to limit it.
 
MG:  Oops!  I meant o5, not o6. Sorry.  OK, now let's see if I can use the
"variation" feature of mgt to lay out a likely sequence after W n4....]
(
;
Black[qr]
;
White[qp]
;
Comment[MW: I thought O3 was more correct than N3, but did this anyway. 
The resulting defective
shape seemed to cost me a lot later... :-\( 
 
MG:  n3 really is bad. o3 is far better, and I rather like the solid p2.
 
OBN: I like p2 a lot. It seems like the bottom is open/small and p2 makes a
very stable shape that can just about fend for itself. It seems to expend
the minimum effort required here where there little to be gained. N3 is not
joseki, and there's nothing really here to be erased or developed, why
bother? I think p2 might even get W to give you sente to develop the right.
 
MG: Agreed!]
Black[mq]
;
White[rr]
;
Black[or]
Comment[MG: Bad shape, unless you're going to play ko after w r1 \(and
there's no reason to\). Better would be q2 or p4 \(if w q2, b p2 \[atari\]
and w ends in gote \[b also has reasonable shape here\]\).  A possibility
would be to tenuki here and play k3, threatening to connect or cut \(if w
q2 \[atari\], then b p2 \[atari\], w r1 \[takes\], b tenukis again, w p3
\[atari\], etc. Notice that, in this sequence, w is capturing one stone
every two moves and b is taking big points elsewhere on the board.\)
 
OBN: I kinda like the q2 option vs p4, p4 seems a little overconcentrated?
 
MG's k3 idea \(making a base while leaving the q/r stones as a sort of
reverse kakari?\) seems real interesting since it may weaken the W left and
leaves W the option to take small stones in gote. 
 
MG: k3 also gives B a connection :-\)
 
OBN: I wonder if Wp2 might be better than q2; it seems to make the W group
live which might be a bit hard on the B right.]
;
White[qs]
;
Black[pr]
Comment[MG: Notice the empty triangle at p3.]
;
White[kq]
Comment[MG: Nearly the optimal move for w]
;
Comment[MW: Flee into the center!!!  I hated to do this...
 
MG: You're too scrunched up here.Try something like l4; if w k3, then you
can probably get away with something like n6; even an ikken tobi at n5
would be better.
 
OBN: Just a quick thanks MG. This kinda of comment is really valuable \(to
me anyway, and I suspect others\). Generally, should we n5 for shape before
the l4 touch or is l4 straight-away preferable?
 
MG:  Thanks.  Attach first and make the opponent define the shape.  If you
play n5 first, W will probably peep at m4 first.  B l4, W k3 first gives B
several forcing moves if W then peeps at m4 and B connects.]
Black[no]
;
Comment[OBN: *what?* W thinks that their corner is in such danger they have
totouch a weak stone to help it out ? Arg ! W should be splitting the B
groups.If W feels it's so imperative to touch Q8, at least p7 or such so
that there's
some splitting effect. Truth is I can see no reason to touch q8. The W
bottomright corner seems to be sitting pretty. I'd vote for p6.
 
MG: p6 would have the nice followup at p8 if B pushed at o6.]
White[pm]
;
Black[om]
Comment[MG: Ikken tobi at o7 would be better, or maybe l5.
 
OBN: It seems unfortunate to allow the right to be damaged like this. I
wonder \(haven't read well\) if the funny touch at l4 is worth a try. It
seems like if W hanes, B get some eye space from the wedge at L2. 
 
MG:  If B l4, W k4, then B l5 and B's shape is as good as it could be
\(considering what's gone before\). B's point at l5 degrades the W moyo
even more. BTW, you want to run toward the center here -- you're not going
to get more liberties playing at the bottom.  Actually, after this the B
group should have no problems looking after itself.
 
OBN: M3 seems harsh, but M2 threatens to get the same base or thicken up
outside. 
 
MG: Well, as W I would be overjoyed to force B to live small against the
side of the board while I got m3 and m4 in.  Of course, there's that muddle
on the right. . . .
 
OBN: If this feasabl maybe could skip away on the right. Is just playing B
p6 on the right enough for B to peek out the head and then play on the
right? 
 
MG: I'd make the solid connection at p8.  This is _real_ thickness, even
though it looks slow.  With the hoshi at q16, B would be looking very good
here. 
OBN: I just hate having the rightside potential damaged to protect stones
were in a small area to start with. It seems painful for B. 
 
MG:  Yep 8^\)!]
;
White[ql]
;
Black[qm]
Comment[MG: I would have atari'd at q6, giving w r7, b p6, w r6, b sente
and b's group is safe enough to start the g6 sequence or to tenuki and play
c14, which is looking pretty big about now.]
;
White[pn]
;
Black[qk]
;
White[rl]
;
Black[rk]
;
White[pk]
;
Black[ol]
;
White[rm]
;
Comment[MW: I was happy with the sequence to here.  The bottom group seemed
safer, and there were good territorial prospects on the upper right side. 
Just the small matter of the aji of the Q9 stone...
 
MG: Locally, it seems to have turned out ok for b, but a w move near l5 or
so makes w's cut of the two knight's moves a bit worrisome, and the oba of
k16 is a ladder block....
 
OBN: It seems like B may have recovered a game here. It feels like B has
gone from a very strong position to a quite weak one and back to a tenuous
strong ... if the bottom/right thickness is stabilized ? It feels like much
of B's
difficulty arose from creating a weak group in a low value area. It seems
like a W splitting attack at 26 \[o6?\] might have hurt B much more. B's
tentative recovery of the right side is big.]
Black[pj]
;
Comment[MW: Hmm... What to do now?  Maybe just Q14, but I decided to go for
the maximal territory
grab instead.  Obviously kyu-thinking...]
White[nc]
;
Black[nd]
Comment[MG: Good move! You're using the thickness you've built up in the
right side quite well. ]
;
White[md]
;
Black[oc]
Comment[MG: Arrgh!  The simple tsukenobi joseki is _very_ good for you here
-- after the t.n.j., you threaten to take the entire side \(30 points?\). 
The josekis coming from the choice of p17 are not good when you have this
sort of heavy thickness up the side.  Locally, they're OK, but you give up
too much potential here.
 
OBN: Oops. Say goodnight moyo.]
;
White[ne]
;
Black[od]
;
White[le]
;
Black[pf]
;
Comment[MW: The "dead" stone springs back to life!  Attack, attack!]
White[ok]
;
Comment[OBN: Seems like a direction problem. B's bottom group is big and
getsrather vulnerable once the white stones get out. I think B can atari
once or twice outside to give the n,o,p group some thicker air and still
stabilize the right
around r12 if so desired. Notice that there's more pressure on W this way
too.The provided moves seem to let much of the the pressure off of white by
allowing escape into the center.]
Black[oj]
;
White[nk]
;
Black[ml]
Comment[MG:  This is probably going to give you bad shape.  Try l5 instead,
then decide whether n8 or something related to g4 would be better.  The
value of the three b stones lies in their cutting w's groups apart, but
because of the cut at r10, they don't really have much value.  \(If w cuts
at r10, it might be best to just atari at r11, etc. and take sente.]
;
White[mj]
;
Comment[MW: Well, I hated to come back and do this, but it seemed like my
only hope was to keep 
white floating in the center.]
Black[qi]
;
Comment[MW Hey, everybody!  Watch me make a dumpling! :-\(]
White[nl]
;
Black[nm]
;
White[mm]
;
Black[mn]
;
White[lm]
;
Black[ll]
;
White[nn]
;
Black[on]
;
White[oo]
;
Black[nn]
;
White[ln]
;
Black[lo]
;
White[np]
;
Black[mo]
;
White[ko]
;
Comment[MW: Another humiliating move...]
Black[mp]
;
Comment[OBN: seems something like Wl6 is stronger to attack the m,n8
stones, if B plays at the bottom Wl9 catches the two stones. \(IMHO\) If W
can stabilize the center like this the W center thickness threatens to be
formidable. B seemed
to do a nice job from here with messing up W's center and using B's new
competing thickness to fight. :-\) bye. ]
White[lp]
;
Black[lq]
;
White[kp]
;
Comment[MW: There, I *might* be alive now...]
Black[op]
;
Comment[MW: What a mess!  Putting the two center stones in motion seemed
like a terrible idea,
but I thought if I didn't do it now, white would attack the left side and
make a huge center.
 
MG: Bad shape move for w -- consider b l8, w k7, b m10.  Still, w is so
strong in this area, that it may not matter.]
White[jj]
;
Black[kl]
;
White[jm]
;
Black[jl]
;
White[il]
;
Black[im]
;
White[jn]
;
Black[ik]
;
White[hl]
;
Black[jk]
;
White[ii]
;
Black[kj]
;
White[ki]
;
Black[hk]
;
White[gl]
;
Black[lj]
;
Comment[MW: I though my only hope now was to split at M11, and attack one
of the two white groups.
But I convinced myself to be patient.  Need to prepare, first...]
White[mi]
;
Black[gk]
;
White[fl]
Comment[MG: You were luck.  If w had played something like o12 and let
youhane at f8, he could have simply played g7 or h6 and concentrated on
making the w moyo at the top into territory.]
;
Black[fk]
;
White[dl]
Comment[MG: This is bad.  It's going to force b into the w moyo to make
eyes.  Something like d13 would be so nice for w....]
;
Black[dk]
;
Comment[MW: I think this C8 by white was a big mistake.  Here's my big
chance... 
MG: Yep, w c8 is only points -- big _endgame_ stuff.  There are still oba
to be played.]
White[cl]
;
Black[df]
Comment[MG: Oh, yes.  Punish, punish.]
;
White[fe]
;
Comment[MW: I still have my eye on M11.  My hope here is either to invade
the upper side, or
get outside thickness while white is killing me...  F17 is kind of a probe.
 
MG: Good move! You're not going to get big points from the center group,
but it'll survive if you're careful; and you should be able to live on the
upper side.]
Black[fc]
;
White[hd]
;
Black[lc]
Comment[MG:  Aji keshi.  Bad move.  Don't play this sort of thing until you
need it to live at the top.  By this peep, you give away the n17 atari
unconditionally.  You probably lost ten or twelve points here.]
;
White[mc]
;
Black[hc]
Comment[MG: Start on the other side with e16.]
;
White[ic]
;
Black[gd]
;
Comment[MW: White falls into my trap...]
White[hb]
;
Black[he]
;
White[gc]
;
Black[id]
Comment[MG: Uh-uh.  Ask yourself what this move accomplishes.  If w
connects, as you suggest he should \(judging by the atari :-\), you're
still left with three cutting points.  Simply connect at f16. White has to
play e15, and then you connect at g15 \(strategic planning, the tactics may
just kill a bigger b group\).]
;
White[hc]
;
Black[ge]
;
White[fd]
;
Black[je]
;
White[jd]
;
Black[ie]
;
White[kd]
Comment[MG:  White's going for territory and letting the pressure off your
group. White f14 or something in this area would be more to the point.]
;
Black[ff]
;
White[ec]
;
Black[ee]
;
Comment[MW: My wildest dreams come true!
 
MG:  Why didn't w just connect at e16?]
White[fb]
;
Black[li]
Comment[MG:  Can't see how w can fail to be hurt pretty badly here.]
;
White[mg]
;
Black[lh]
;
White[jg]
;
Black[kf]
;
White[kg]
;
Black[lg]
;
White[lf]
;
Comment[MW: White seemed to get demoralized at this point, and began
floundering... 
MG: He should be demoralized -- you've played it out perfectly.  Nice
planning in building up your thickness, too.]
Black[hg]
;
White[di]
;
Black[ci]
;
White[ek]
Comment[MG:  <chuckle>  I'm _so_ unkind.]
;
Black[ej]
;
White[dj]
;
Black[el]
;
White[ck]
;
Black[ek]
;
White[dh]
;
Black[ch]
;
White[eg]
;
Black[dg]
;
White[ef]
;
Black[fg]
;
White[em]
;
Black[mh]
;
White[bq]
;
Black[br]
;
White[eq]
;
Black[er]
;
White[cr]
)
(
;
AddBlack[oo][no][nq][oq][mo][kp]
AddWhite[mp][on][pp][qq][nn][rp]
)
(
;
Comment[MG: This is starting to look interesting for W.]
AddBlack[nq][lq][nl]
AddWhite[no][lo][pi][ll]
AddEmpty[qq]
)
)
(
;
Comment[MG:  Well, if B forces the small avalanche pattern, he should come
out of this pretty well \(the push and cut starting with g4 is starting to
look _really_ nasty\).  Of course, B probably gets sente \(failing to take
at q7 is usually bad for W\).  The large avalanche would give W outward
thickness, which I don't care for here.]
AddEmpty[oq][np][pn]
AddWhite[pp][qq][rq][qn][oo][on][pm]
AddBlack[qo][qp][pr][or][nq][op][no][mp]
)
(
;
Comment[MG: This looks OK for both to me, since B takes sente for something
like c14. Of course, W will jump at the chance to play n4 so B has to try
to keep sente to play something like n5.]
AddWhite[qn][pm][qi]
AddBlack[qo][qp][nq]
)
(
;
AddWhite[qq][qp][qk]
AddBlack[np][qr][or]
)
)