To: flieg@socrates.Berkeley.EDU
Cc: cley@juno.com, minstrel@pbm.com
Subject: Re: minstrel: Nature of Bardic Competitions
Message-Id: <19981005.194631.4791.1.cley@juno.com>
References: <2.2.32.19981005213311.00f24fcc@socrates.berkeley.edu>
From: cley@juno.com (cynthia j ley)
Date: Tue, 06 Oct 1998 00:00:13 EDT
Sender: owner-minstrel@rt.com
Precedence: bulk


On Mon, 05 Oct 1998 14:33:11 -0700 "Fred (Flieg) Hollander"
<flieg@socrates.Berkeley.EDU> writes:

>>Must be the tradition where you are. Here it's expected. Even if 
>someone waves the aforementioned Oxford at me and says "We're gonna do a

>madrigal from this," I still expect them to tell me more than just the
source,
>>even though I've worked intimately with the Oxford for 17 years. Is 
>it a true madrigal? A ballet? A canzonet? What makes a madrigal? etc.
>
>   This is not the competitor teaching you _or_ you teaching the 
>competitor. This is just a requirement for extreme documentation.
>  This is also (imho) entirely too picky for words and an excellent
>reason to go off in the corner away from the competitionand sing filk
(just for the contrast).

And this is where you and I part ways (i can always count on you for an
interesting debate! :-) ) How is it "too picky"? The forms are different.
The construction is different. If you're going to do formal music, know
what it's about!

And lest you think I'm a purist, I'm not, and go off and sing filk with
the best (worst?) of them quite often.

I believe though that a serious competition should be taken seriously,
that the entrant should show a knowledge base. And while I'm not a horn
tooter, I've worked at all levels of bardic competition both locally and
at Kingdom level.

>  I'm here to participate, to be the hero (of various stripes) in my
>own story, and incidentally to learn, so as to do the others better.
>I'm not here (nor are most people that I know) to go to school and do
>homework assignments, expecially picky ones.

It depends though on the type of competition. Our bardic competitions
here expect a minimum of documentation--we believe very strongly in the
educational aspect. Nothing wrong with a looser form though, where all
you have to do is perform something with no docs. I'm just saying that if
you want to compete at Regionals and Kingdom level, expect to have to
work for it beyond your own artistry. Give yourself and your judges the
knowledge base to accompany the performance. I've noted that in An Tirian
competitions, docs count! So does artistry. But sloppy docs get you lower
marks, because you should have presented better.

>>>    Imho -- documentation is to show the judge that the competitor
>>>knows what is period; presumably the judge already knows.

That's judge deification, Flieg--it doesn't work.  Some judges may know
the difference between Sephardic music and a minnesinger song, and lots
won't. Identifying and distinguishing works in their context is as
important for the judge as it is for the competitor.

>>That's the purpose of a findings or summary paper. A competitor may 
>not have time to talk about the entry in their performance,
>
>  Gods! I hope not -- few things are more disruptive of the mood than 
>having someone "give their documentation" just before the performance.

I'll give you a case in point. My local shire of Dragon's Mist holds an
annual bardic competition focused towards the Renaissance. Entrants
present by announcing their piece (there are 10 categories they can
compete in), hand the judges the docs, and perform. When they finish, the
judges have the option of calling the entrant over and asking them such
questions as they deem appropriate. The entrants really like this,
surprisingly enough--it gives them an opportunity to go more in depth, to
explain their artistic choices, and to know that people are really paying
attention to what they are doing.

>   Tallies?  I think we may be talking about two entirely different 
>things here. You sound like you're talking about classic "A&S
competitions". 
>I've been talking about "bardic competitions" (clearly separated out
about
>eight days ago, at least in my mind).  

I dropped into this list in the middle of this concersation, I suspect.
8) but I am talking about both bardic competitions and A&S competitions,
as they work here.

>>While I don't disagree with you, I don't agree completely either. 
>We've
>>been discussing period stuff here--wouldn't you like to know the 
>context
>>of the work being done? Don't you think that it will help you as a
>>performer to understand not only what it is, but why it is, and the
>>cultural context of it? 
>
>  Maybe.  Maybe not.  Usually I don't care "why", and I'm not part of 
>that culture so I'm never _really_ going to understand that. And if I'm
>singing a period drinking song, neither I nor my audience _need_ 
>to know anything but that it is a drinking song. If it's a love song,
>the only interesting thing might be how little the sentiments have
>changed between madrigals and rockabilly.

Granted, there is the issue of suitability to an audience. I'm speaking
within a competition context.

>    I might expect the judge to judge me on whether it was a period 
>piece and how well I did it and not worry about Agincourt.

Personally, I wouldn't worry "about Agincourt," but I'ld worry if you
didn't know. There's a big difference between "this is a song
commemorating an historic event," and "I'm English and like to sing kick
French butt songs."

> And if I
>worked a brief mention of it in my intro to the audience, such
>as "I will now sing 'Deo Gracias Anglia', in celebration of our recent
>victory over the forces of Louis at Agincourt." Then I would expect to 
>get a little tiny plus point for working in the basic docco. I would
>_not_ expect to supply any of that in my docco for the piece. 

And that's a nice introduction. :-)

If you had to present a short (very--a paragraph or two) on it, how would
you do it if the judges expected it? See, that's just it--99% of our big
bardic competitions expect that.


				respectfully yours,

					Arlys

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