Message-Id: <9401200033.AA21964@us2rmc.bb.dec.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Jan 94 19:33:58 EST
From: touche!  19-Jan-1994 1915 <groff@epee.enet.dec.com>
To: justin@dsd.camb.inmet.com
Cc: carolingia@world.std.com, groff@epee.enet.dec.com
Apparently-To: carolingia@world.std.com, justin@dsd.camb.inmet.com
Subject: Re: Principality

>Correct. This is one of the reasons I prefer the smaller Principality --
>it leaves both the Principality and the rest of the Kingdom a relatively
>manageable size. The large Principality is still pretty big, especially
>if you count the Maritimes, and would leave the remainder of the 
>Kingdom *tiny*. It's a poor division, IMO...

Tiny... hmm... Easten PA, DE, NJ, NYC up to Albany does not seem tiny.  Its not
huge, but its not tiny either.  There are A LOT of people in that mix.

>>2) The East has too many people.
>
>Correct, but I don't think that the problem would be as bad with a
>sensible Principality. Pikestaff would still have a lot of people to
>go to, true, but most of the other work (especially most of the
>Royal work) could be devolved to the Principality. 

Pikestaff isnt the problem.  The Prince/Princess do not run the
AgC/Maunche/OTC/OGR pollings.  That is a problem.  They would have to create
their own orders which... adds problems.

>And the Principality
>would be small enough that the Royals *could* actually get out to the
>isolated groups on a reasonably regular basis

I don't agree with this logic.  The royals make it to the far north more often
than they make it to WV.

> -- if we have a group
>that is all of North&Central, everything I've seen indicates that the
>Far North will stay just as isolated as ever.

from the Royals, maybe.  From the Prince/Princess -- I don't think so.  The CT
based P/P will make a serious attempt to get to them at least once, maybe twice
each reign.  A VT P/P may not be able to afford to go to Newfoundland but might
make a drive into Seacoast...  remember to play economics when you talk about
"exposure".

>(Note that almost everyone I know in the Far North agrees with this
>logic -- indeed, the strength of their conviction in this matter is
>one of the major reasons why I am such a strong advocate of the
>smaller Principality. Most of the Far North has made it quite clear
>that they'd rather not even bother if it's going to be that big...)

Interesting, the ones I spoke with did not seem to have such strong
convictions.  They either thought it a problem to have one or, if they do have
one, many thought they should include the Central Region.  Most agreed to the
proto-kingdom idea.

>I think you overestimate the North-vs-South cultural differences.
>Yes, there are groups in the North that have a lot of breadth. Yes,
>there are groups in the South that have next to none. But the reverse
>is also true. I've met *plenty* of stick-jocks in the North, and I'd
>challenge almost any northern branch to show the kind of arts depth
>that (say) Whyte Whey has.

I think you read too much into those statements.  What I spoke of was a
"individual" activities verses "cooperative group" activities.

>>4) There is a sense of cohesion within the New England states.  
>>
>>	We all consider Elspeth a friend and neighbor. 
>
>Oh, really? How many Carolingians actually go to any Bridge events
>besides Black Rose? I'll tell you: damned few. It's fairly common for
>Caitlin and me to find ourselves the only Carolingians present at,
>say, a Bridge Birthday. (Besides Steffan.) Carolingia and Bridge *did*
>have a very strong relationship; unfortunately, that seems to have
>largely petered out. (And yes, I'm unhappy about it...)

Honestly, what you go to and what I go to are different events.  The few times
I have gone (primarily limited by "life" these days) I saw Carolngia, BBM,
Dragonship, StoneMarche and occasionally Freehold and Bergental represented.  I
did not want to limit that "we" to Carolingia but more to "New England".

>>Our households are more-likely to work together that to fight one
>>another.  Maybe that is a phenomenia of the past in the South, but
>>when I was there it was a major destructive point.
>
>Far as I know, this was primarily a characteristic specific to Bhakail
>and Ostgardr. And yes, it seems to have faded a lot in recent years.
>(Frankly, the nastiest piece of household in-fighting I've seen in the
>past two or three years was between two Northern households; fortunately,
>it appears to have died down fairly fast...)

And Jersey too... when I was around it was Jersey Household wars...

>>5) More opportunities to have things work to "our way" as opposed to a 
>>compromise of two diverse opinions.  
>>
>>We are still forming the East.  It is a changing entity.  BUT, it
>>changes slower now that argument after argument must be worked
>>through.  Why such a great gridlock?  Because the viewpoints are
>>vastely different when you compare a Malgentian to a Boggy.  With a
>>smaller number of people and a smaller geography over which
>>communication can be made, we can resolve conflict easier.
>
>I don't buy it. I'd bet that the rules-and-regs difference between
>North and South isn't *nearly* as big as it is between big, concentrated
>Baronies, and smaller, more rural groups. That's one of my arguments
>for the smaller Principality -- it leaves both groups a little more
>homogeneous, with the more rural groups becoming the Principality,
>and the big dense groups remaining behind...

My experience is with the OGR and the Cording system.  My limited experience 
with Curia also demonstrated some differences in how we handle lists and list
officers in the "northern" groups verses the south.

>>If that is presented, I would prefer that we have NEITHER.  Why?
>>Because it would fragement the Kingdom with no appearant benifit.  The
>>Central Region does not need a Prince.  There is no reason that I have
>>EVER SEEN for us to need more royalty or laws or awards
>>or... anything.
>
>That's nice. You'll forgive the folks up North, who can't even get
>AoA's in decent time, if they disagree with you? One of the major
>benefits is that it gives the north a set of Royalty who can actually
>pay some attention to them, instead of treating them as an afterthought
>(as very nearly all Royalty do today, and I believe the Royalty of the
>Big Principality would, because most of the population would be in the
>relatively dense south).

I am not forgetting them.  Remember, I think they will become deligated to
"those Princes" and loose whatever recognition by the EK Royals that they might
get.  The AoA's can be given by the Princes, but not the Kingdom-level awards. 
AoA's require letters (the royals get damned few) and most/all were given out
by the one Royal with whom I checked.  I suspect this is true for most of the
Meritime AoA recognition.  Its not AoAs that I worry about, its Maunche's,
Laurels, OTC, OGR, Knights, Crescents and Pelicans.  The fighting awards are
more "demonstratable" that service or arts but all these awards are KINGDOM
polling awards.  Do you seriously want to add another obsticle in the way of
our Northern cousins? 

No, the only solution for "Kingdom-level" recognition is to make the "Kingdom"
smaller.  That Kingdom should be "culturely" cohesive.  NE and Meritimes count.

In time, hopefully, the Meritimes will grow to the level where they are their
own Kingdom.  Maybe in 15 years or so.

>>The Northern Region does not have enough Peers.
>*If* they are trying to become a Kingdom. If they are becoming a
>Principality, they're just fine, well within reasonable parameters.

Since the North cannot gain anything tangable without going Kingdom, I think we
can avoid this issue.

>>(BTW: Central Regional
>>Muckity-Mucks are always welcomed in the North.  AND, Central Regional people
>>are welcomed even if they are not a muckity-muck.)
>Strawman -- I don't know *anyone* who turns away visitors, regardless of
>where they're from. And the folks in the Far North are *starving* for
>visitors...

You and I know this.  This was a response to an earlier post (Tibor?).

>>I think two Principalities or one "Northern-Region-Only" Principality
>>would murder the far-North.
>Whereas I think that it would give them *some* attention, which is a
>lot better than the current situation, and (I believe) better than
>they would get from the big Principality/Kingdom.

And I think it would deligate them to near obscurity.  I guess we have to agree
to disagree.

>				-- Justin
>				   Playing the Loyal Opposition
Danulf