Date: Wed, 19 Jan 94 18:56:48 EST
From: justin@dsd.camb.inmet.com (Mark Waks)
Message-Id: <9401192356.AA08687@dsd.camb.inmet.com>
To: groff@epee.enet.dec.com
Cc: carolingia@world.std.com
In-Reply-To: <9401192207.AA18191@us2rmc.bb.dec.com> (message from touche!  19-Jan-1994 1511 on Wed, 19 Jan 94 17:07:18 EST)
Subject: Re: Principality

In understanding the difference between Danulf's stance and mine, it's
worthwhile to understand the really key issue, which is: are we
looking at a long-term Principality, or a proto-Kingdom? I have a
certain fondness for the East, and no particular desire to split it up
(and *very* little desire to leave it) -- I'm mainly trying to deal
with some specific problems, like the very poor recognition and
contact that the Far North gets. Danulf wants a more radical change,
solving several problems that I don't see as being so bad (and, I
believe, not solving some of the ones I'm concerned with). I'm arguing
for North-only because it would make a much better Principality; he's
arguing for North&Central because it's the only way to make a viable
Kingdom. That is a *very* central difference, and underscores most of
our other arguments.

He also perceives considerably more "identity" to the North&Central
area than I do. My perception is that the fencers have a considerable
identity, the fighters somewhat less so, and the artisans and rank and
file very little.  It's there, but I think it's pretty weak.

>Below, when I say "Northern" I mean both North and Central Region.  Remember,
>we used to be one region until "realitively" recently.

A clarification for those who are new. In Times Gone By, the North and
some (all?) of the Central Regions were a single region. Around the
end of the last major Principality movement, there was a redrawing of
the lines, dividing the Kingdom into five regions instead of the
previous three. A new line was at the northern border of MA, and
has been there since. However, bear in mind that these were always
intended to be purely administrative conveniences, and were *never*
drawn with much attention to culture...

>1) East is too big.  
>
>	Compare our size to other Kingdoms.  If you EXCLUDE the Meritimes, we
>are a "reasonable" size.  Travel can be done in one-day from one-side to the
>other.  BUT, do not plan to do anything after that travel.  To be able to
>travel to an event in-the-same-day, we would need to be 1/2 the size.  Say, 8
>hours in breadth. 

Correct. This is one of the reasons I prefer the smaller Principality --
it leaves both the Principality and the rest of the Kingdom a relatively
manageable size. The large Principality is still pretty big, especially
if you count the Maritimes, and would leave the remainder of the 
Kingdom *tiny*. It's a poor division, IMO...

(And, frankly, I see little point in creating a proto-Kingdom that is
3/4 of the old Kingdom geographically *and* well over half of its
population...)

>2) The East has too many people.

Correct, but I don't think that the problem would be as bad with a
sensible Principality. Pikestaff would still have a lot of people to
go to, true, but most of the other work (especially most of the
Royal work) could be devolved to the Principality. And the Principality
would be small enough that the Royals *could* actually get out to the
isolated groups on a reasonably regular basis -- if we have a group
that is all of North&Central, everything I've seen indicates that the
Far North will stay just as isolated as ever.

(Note that almost everyone I know in the Far North agrees with this
logic -- indeed, the strength of their conviction in this matter is
one of the major reasons why I am such a strong advocate of the
smaller Principality. Most of the Far North has made it quite clear
that they'd rather not even bother if it's going to be that big...)

>People are getting dropped off of pollings because they are not
>politically connected into households which do letter writing
>campeigns.  Do we need to be part of a household to be on a polling
>list?  Recent experience says "yes".

I believe you over-estimate this effect. I don't deny that it exists
-- *some* people do get onto polling lists because of household
ties. But there are a fair number of us who sit down with the Liber,
and use it as the basis for fairly rigorous recommendation letters. (I
wish there were more, but there are certainly a fair number.) And I
believe that we have a fairly strong effect -- most of the people I
recommend *do* make it onto the letters, although not all get the
awards any time soon. Regardless, I *strongly* doubt that this would
be any different in a new Kingdom...

(This is a little off-topic, though...)

I think you overestimate the North-vs-South cultural differences.
Yes, there are groups in the North that have a lot of breadth. Yes,
there are groups in the South that have next to none. But the reverse
is also true. I've met *plenty* of stick-jocks in the North, and I'd
challenge almost any northern branch to show the kind of arts depth
that (say) Whyte Whey has.

Even in dance, it isn't at all clear to me that the North does all
that much more than the South. Hell, with Settmour getting serious
dance going, and dance slumping quite a bit in Carolingia, I'm not
sure that the North dances more than the South at all! (I suspect it
does, but not by *nearly* as much as Danulf paints it.)

I am *completely* unconvinced that there is any substantive difference
between North and South in terms of Royalty, except in the incidentals
of who has *actually* gotten to the throne. If the "South" appears to
have a particular style, it seems to me largely due to House Wilmot
skewing the average, and little more. I haven't met *any* Royals who
didn't depend heavily on their household, and who actually made it
through the reign without major problems...

>4) There is a sense of cohesion within the New England states.  
>
>	We all consider Elspeth a friend and neighbor. 

Oh, really? How many Carolingians actually go to any Bridge events
besides Black Rose? I'll tell you: damned few. It's fairly common for
Caitlin and me to find ourselves the only Carolingians present at,
say, a Bridge Birthday. (Besides Steffan.) Carolingia and Bridge *did*
have a very strong relationship; unfortunately, that seems to have
largely petered out. (And yes, I'm unhappy about it...)

>Randel and Katherine are not "who?"  they are a "known" set of former
>royalty.

So? So are *most* of the recent Royals, from a variety of
places. Heck, most people still remember Rhys quite vividly, even if
they didn't like him on the throne. I can only think of a few Royals
who have come and gone quietly enough to get a "who?" (and some of
them are Northerners by your definition)...

>Our households are more-likely to work together that to fight one
>another.  Maybe that is a phenomenia of the past in the South, but
>when I was there it was a major destructive point.

Far as I know, this was primarily a characteristic specific to Bhakail
and Ostgardr. And yes, it seems to have faded a lot in recent years.
(Frankly, the nastiest piece of household in-fighting I've seen in the
past two or three years was between two Northern households; fortunately,
it appears to have died down fairly fast...)

>Now, here's a question Justin: what are the major households in
>Jersey?  Compare that to "what are the Major Households in Maine".  Or "VT"
>or... "CT"

NJ (mostly): Wilmot. ME: the Veassels. General: Drachenklawe, the
Sheep, and (once) the Von Halsterns. I don't know anyone else I'd call
"major", although I know smaller households all over the place...

>5) More opportunities to have things work to "our way" as opposed to a 
>compromise of two diverse opinions.  
>
>We are still forming the East.  It is a changing entity.  BUT, it
>changes slower now that argument after argument must be worked
>through.  Why such a great gridlock?  Because the viewpoints are
>vastely different when you compare a Malgentian to a Boggy.  With a
>smaller number of people and a smaller geography over which
>communication can be made, we can resolve conflict easier.

I don't buy it. I'd bet that the rules-and-regs difference between
North and South isn't *nearly* as big as it is between big, concentrated
Baronies, and smaller, more rural groups. That's one of my arguments
for the smaller Principality -- it leaves both groups a little more
homogeneous, with the more rural groups becoming the Principality,
and the big dense groups remaining behind...

>If that is presented, I would prefer that we have NEITHER.  Why?
>Because it would fragement the Kingdom with no appearant benifit.  The
>Central Region does not need a Prince.  There is no reason that I have
>EVER SEEN for us to need more royalty or laws or awards
>or... anything.

That's nice. You'll forgive the folks up North, who can't even get
AoA's in decent time, if they disagree with you? One of the major
benefits is that it gives the north a set of Royalty who can actually
pay some attention to them, instead of treating them as an afterthought
(as very nearly all Royalty do today, and I believe the Royalty of the
Big Principality would, because most of the population would be in the
relatively dense south).

>The Northern Region does not have enough Peers.

*If* they are trying to become a Kingdom. If they are becoming a
Principality, they're just fine, well within reasonable parameters.

>(BTW: Central Regional
>Muckity-Mucks are always welcomed in the North.  AND, Central Regional people
>are welcomed even if they are not a muckity-muck.)

Strawman -- I don't know *anyone* who turns away visitors, regardless of
where they're from. And the folks in the Far North are *starving* for
visitors...

>I think two Principalities or one "Northern-Region-Only" Principality
>would murder the far-North.

Whereas I think that it would give them *some* attention, which is a
lot better than the current situation, and (I believe) better than
they would get from the big Principality/Kingdom.

> [Take some land from AEthelmearc, and give it back to the center.]
>Of course, this discussion is a little "late" in the game.

Very, very much so. AEthelmearc *is* going to become a Kingdom, possibly
quite soon. And all of the groups in it voted themselves in -- the
rest of us have no right to tell them that they have to leave it now...

				-- Justin
				   Playing the Loyal Opposition

Random Quote du Jour:

"Okay, one last time...
 This is Calvin...
 This is Calvin on Chocolate-Frosted Sugar Bombs...
 Any questions?"
		-- Jim Drew