Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19981010064051.00c47c68@mail.swbell.net>
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 06:40:51 -0500
To: "Greg Lindahl" <lindahl@pbm.com>, mn13189@WCUVAX1.WCU.EDU
From: Rex Deaver <rdeaver@swbell.net>
Subject: Re: minstrel: Bardic, Period, and assorted rantings...
Cc: minstrel@pbm.com
In-Reply-To: <199810081350.JAA09604@xkey.com>
References: <Pine.PMDF.3.95.981008091957.549655177A-100000@WCUVAX1.WCU.EDU>
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At 09:50 AM 10/8/98 -0400, Greg Lindahl wrote:
>> I am certain that I can find loads of evidence for Elizabethan minstrels.
>
>You can start with the quote at the top of
>
>http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/minstrel.html

Which *most* people use as indicator that minstrelsy was over...the schools
closed, the guilds moribund.  What was left was not minstrels but
"vagabonds" and "sturdy beggars".

>The OED says this about minstrel:

O, this is going to be too easy, milord.  The OED is a tertiary source at
best. 

>
>So there you go; a clear description of how the Victorians changed the
>meaning of the term.

That was a great leap, milord!  Huzzah!  And without a net, too! :-)

Where do you find *any* "clear" reference to Victorians there?  I have
pored over the text, and my poor eyes cannot find it.  I see "modern" and
"romantic" and "historical".    

I don't get the "Old English period" reference at all...the term was a
second wave French import (circa late 12th C), jongleur being the first,
which would place it quite *firmly* in Middle English. 

The distinction arose by the actions of the minstrel guilds and schools
from the 13th to the early 16th C.  They were the ones emphasizing the
difference, setting standards, establishing training.

Mathurin

--
"Alas! all music jars when the soul's out of tune."
	 -- Miguel de Cervantes (1547-1616)


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